I ask you again. What do you suggest?
Neither you, nor OTP, have given a response indicating HOW you would fix the problem you see. The only response has been that what we are currently doing isn't enough.
What kind of social programs need to be extended or created? Just how far does it have to go, and what do you see that would be able to address that inequality?
OTP is right in that I'm sure I wasn't the most qualified in the entire country for my current position, but I was most qualified of those that applied and were interviewed. Also, I'm not really worried about discrimination helping me in my current role, because my work group has the racial appearance of a stock photo you would use to represent diversity.
My point on it being up to the individual is that you can create all the social programs or affirmative action programs in the world, but even so, it's up to the individual to take advantage of those advantages that are presented to them. It's no different than someone with connections. You can have connections, but the individual still has to work to meet some minimum qualifications and do the work to take advantage of those connections. You can be given a leg up in the world, either through programs or connections, but the individual still has to take advantage of the leg up given.
I'm not opposed to all programs or advantages, but I still posit that you can't force someone to use the leg up that you give them.
But please TBT, give me something more than "it isn't enough". Define what would be enough. Then we can have an actual discussion about whether or not we agree.
Let me put it another way for you all. A CNN reporter named John Blake has indicated that perhaps it is the fault of christians that all citizens don't have "free" health care. Others disagree with him. Some of them are christian and believe giving "free" health care to everyone to be the christian thing to do.
Should all christians be held responsible for the behavior of some christians? How about CNN reporters?
Me? I stand in line like everybody else. I pay for what I can and don't take things that I can't pay for because they don't belong to me. I respect my elders, sometimes even if they don't respect me. I always remember that there is something bigger than me and I teach this to those under my care. I am a faithful follower, leader, and equal to whomever with respect to each in his kind. I take good care of my animals. I bring no harm to those who do not harm me. I keep nothing close to my heart that belongs to others and i do not "bear false witness". I do not worship the things around me. I do spend time, each and every day, thinking about all of the above and I never apply them lightly or without reason.
There is no way mr grove made the rules about hiring at the company he currently works for and no way he made the rules at the university he attended. That's because he didn't already work at either place. Someone else made those rules. There is this thing called time and it is an impenetrable barrier. A young boy of 17 or 19 can not be held responsible for the actions of the facility at the university he attended, no matter how much you would like it otherwise. He received no advantage which he should be made to relinquish, nor should his childen, or their children. That is the claim spewed by the purveyors of the concepts of "white privilege". OTP wants us to live in a world like that of India, where the Dalit are treated as if they carry some form of "sin" for which they are "guilty" because of who their parents are. Kinda like "the mark of Ham" or "the mark of Cain". That isn't going to happen here in the USA. You see, most of us here in the USA don't believe in that stuff any more. The idea of group guilt or responsibility for some action or other is repugnant to us. This comes to our culture via the concepts of individual liberty. I can see that OTP and TBT don't believe in such things and that's a shame on each of them, but not on me. It is also not a shame on their children because the children haven't done anything, only these two men.
See how this works?
No one is asking you to feel guilty. What you earned, you earned by your own hard work and diligence, that is, within the framework of the parameters that were established at the time.
Just look around you at your workplace and ask yourself, was I really the most qualified person for my position? Did I really get accepted in college because I was one of the best applicants? Just maybe, these things came to be because I fit a certain preferential profile. Sure you worked hard, but, so did a lot of other people, maybe with better credentials than you, in other words, you just may have had an advantage over other people that education had nothing to do with, all things considered equal.
You like sports, so, let us try this one. Jackie Robinson was the first black to play baseball in the major leagues(the white league), but, trust me, Jackie was not the best player playing in the negro league, by far, not the best. In boxing, all of the heavyweight champions were white, not because they were the best, but, because they had the advantage of being able to exclude others who were better. That is why when Jack Johnson won the title, there was almost a riot. In every field of endeavor, the whites excluded blacks, so how can you honestly say that those whites that succeeded were the best?
You say let us now, create a level playing field, but, how can the field be truly level when all of the rules, you made them? You bristled at affirmative action, preferential treatment given to blacks for college and hiring, etc. So, you talked about equal opportunities, while running to the polls to vote in right wing white conservatives so that through them and the makeup of the supreme court, you could put a stop to it. Yes, by pulling that lever in the voting booth, you could still say you were all for equal opportunity when you knew with that vote, you had started to take away the tools to bring people that had been slaves, treated unjust for over 200 years. Grove, African
Americans can see through your little charade.
What you and other whites are afraid of is the results of giving blacks a true level playing field. Hey, 10 years or so, the NFL said that blacks didn't have the IQ to be a successful pro quarterback. Well, look around the league now? It is really scary when you stop and think about the history of the African American in this country. Look how far, how fast they have came with the worst of everything. Hell, they are only about 10 or so points in education attainment as the whites are, and, they are playing by the white's rule. That is really scary. Look out and don't slow down, for we are already nipping at your heels. Either join us, move aside or you will be run over. The tide is rapidly turning. It is a lot different when you begin to play on someone else's playing field, with their rules.
I also don't think you understand the meaning of the word "sins".
@Grove I don't think you can undo the sins of 200 years with a few rules and say, it's up to the individual to take advantage of them. Poor answer.
We aren't taking about my family. We are talking about a group of people.
It's one thing to state that someone has an advantage. It's another to suggest solutions.
To answer your question though, you can't fix the past. The only thing you can do is fix how you as a society handle the future. Should I feel bad that my parents grew up blue collar, took out debt to get a college education and then worked to move up in social class, providing me with more advantages than they had?
As I said, all you can provide are the opportunities for people to improve their station. Offer more minority scholarships, offer social training if necessary. Increase Pell grants. Encourage minority presence in major companies and contract work. All you can do as a society is provide opportunities. It's up to the individual to take advantage.
Since you posed the question to me, I pose it back to you. What's your solution?
Demanding white guilt doesn't do anything for anyone, so offer a better solution. In the meantime, I refuse to feel guilty. It's not a productive emotion, and I've done nothing to require guilt.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "refute".
Also I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "family".
Grove, just how would you make right 200 years of oppression if it had been committed against your family? Please list any suggestions.
I don't think so, "Eeyore," or I could say another name. Also to Grove.
OTP just bothers to refute just some of the instances where you guys have it wrong. Why should someone take loads of their time to refute 100 big and small, mainly small, wrong points. I wouldn't waste my time either. Just those I wanted to.
Just because there are many shouts from the large crowd, it doesn't make it so!
That about sums it up.
You still managed to avoid the question. What exactly do you propose be done to fix things?
More preferential treatment based on race? I'm just curious what you think can be done to right the ship. I'm not suggesting I would even disagree with you, but in order to understand your position, I would like to know what you think needs to be done.
On that note, what would you think about preferential treatment given based on socio-economic status?
By the way, I hold no resentment toward the guy from my example. He still had to take his opportunity, finish school and then use it to become the success he is. He got a break to help him, but he still had to take advantage. Life is that way for everyone. Everyone is going to catch a break or get an advantage at some point in some way. It's up to the individual to take advantage.
Congrats "nobody" now guess the number between 1 and three I am thinking of?
Enough of the bull that you are trying to post. 200 years of deprivation and unjust treatment takes more than a civil rights act and a few court rulings to wipe that legacy away and create a level playing field. Instead of just starting anew creating that level filed, something should be done to make up for those past injustices, and, of course one of the ways was in preferential treatment for African Americans. But, you republicans, through a conservative court has erased all of that.
So, this Black kid was a better athlete than you, that is not surprising. Six points lower on the ACT doesn't really mean a thing. He met the basic qualifications and then surpassed your six point lead because he had something that you didn't have, evidently he was a better athlete, more than a six point spread, than you.
Hell, there are a lot of legacy seats taken at Ivy League Schools. What about that.
So, you logical argument just don't wash. You can dress it up, put perfume on it, but, it still stinks.
Don't try to hook me with gotcha posts.
Yes, all of those immigrants came here as labor and some with a set skill. Regardless once they got here, they all were given status higher than the American born African American.
Eeyore, if you would look up the history of the Jew and immigration to the U. S., you will readily see what I am talking about.
Are you saying you are for immigration now just so long they aren't Russian? Is that it? Did you even know that most of the Russians don't consider themselves European? As for the history of immigration here in the good ol' US of A, you really should go read up on the subject a bit. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
There is no doubt about the low cost labor issue. None at all. Groups of people here in the US were brought here specifically due to their ability to provide labor, sometimes for specific tasks or skill sets. What you also clearly don't know is that this has occurred all over the world and always causes problems (where there are people that are allowed to speak up).
Your claim that people here in the US aren't called racists if they are against more immigration in any way at all is laughable. I know you would like to believe that is a believable claim, but it isn't. All anyone has to do is pay attention. It isn't that hard. You should try it.
You appear to know actually less than nothing about the history of immigration here in the US. Frankly, to me, you never seem to actually know anything at all.
I'm about THIS CLOSE to deciding that you are really some racist KKK member doing his best impression of the black version of Archie Bunker. THIS CLOSE I tell ya!
Nobody wins....er, that is, "nobody" wins. And the prize is, appropriately, nothing.
Actually, nobody, you've got a misspelling of the name, and I'm not sure Alex Trebek would give you full credit.
Well he does favor a young Dan Toler of the Allman Brothers, but alas he passed and there ain't no gitfiddle.
Terry Rowland. But, come on, you knew you I was talking about. :-)
A name, please.
By Leonard Gill
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