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Comment Archives: Stories: Politics

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@OakTree
Yes, I know. That's what Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren did when they went out campaigning for Hillary Clinton. That's what lots of Bernie Sanders voters, including me, did when they voted for Hillary Clinton. But that isn't what ideal-bound voters who went for the Green Party did.

2 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Brunetto Latini on 11/09/2016 at 11:22 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

Oak, in response to your 7:20 pm response to our friend Grove, I have to agree, the dems did shoot themselves in the posterior. Now, I cannot get the image of Bill out of my head saying in that raspy, populous 1992 voice saying "I feel your pain."

Bernie has to agree - "we shot ourselves in the butt and the hole is Yuge."

4 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by LoveBC on 11/09/2016 at 10:16 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@BL - If you you want to wait until there aren't any people whose opinion you disagree with left in America, then you are going to be waiting a long time. If on the other had, you realize that even people who you disagree with might want to do something which would be good for everyone, then you can work WITH those people you disagree with to accomplish that goal.

We call this idea of working with people you may disagree with 'politics'.

9 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by OakTree on 11/09/2016 at 10:07 PM
Posted by Brunetto Latini on 11/09/2016 at 10:03 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@BL I enjoy reading your viewpoints, but I believe you are a little narrow of your view points of Trump supporters. Most working people I know have a live and let live opinion of gay people. Maybe my view of Trump supporters is equally narrow, but I believe many of Trump's supporters see themselves as frustrated people that flipped the bird to the republican establishment during the primaries, and then flipped the bird to the coastal elites during the general election.

One Trump point I agree with is that this country has negotiated some incredibly bad trade deals that have been detrimental to America, especially those in the manufacturing sector. However, whenever I hear about building a wall, I not only think of the incredible expense, the negative cost to benefit factor, and even the extreme environmental impact - I am also reminded that walls are actually not good protection. I am not an historian, most of my history knowledge came from watching the History channel, but it has been said that the Great Wall of China actually bankrupted whatever dynasty ran China at the time (help me out again Bric) and that the Germans dissed the Maginot Line by going over it, around it, and then attacking it from behind.

Don't know about you all, but I ain't going to hold Donald to the wall promise.

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by LoveBC on 11/09/2016 at 10:03 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@oak, thanks.

2 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by datGuy on 11/09/2016 at 10:00 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@datGuy - I was agreeing with you. That's why I put the chart in there.

3 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by OakTree on 11/09/2016 at 9:56 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

Oak, good points. It is said that there are seven different types of intelligence. I may upset several of my conservative friends by writing this, but HRC is very bright in almost all areas. My "smart" cousin graduated from Yale LS like HRC, and HRC does have a high powered legal mind and organizational abilities. She is also well motivated and has an inner toughness I admire. In fact, most of us would have liked HRC as our lawyer at least at one point in our lives.
But, we all have holes in our intelligence. HRC comes across to me as being aloof and non-caring, sort of a mercenary mentality.
Although I have heard that HRC is friendly on a small scale, I feel that she does not read us mortals well. For example, I read, but don't remember where, and perhaps Bric will help out a bro, that Hillary was seen reading a book at a Razorback game back when Bill was the gov. Geez, what a dis to one of my Alma Maters. Social intelligence is Bill's strongest point IMHO.
To me, and I know this is a weird comparison, but I think of her as the Dan Akroid of politics, a strong back-up, and behind the scenes type, but just not leading man/woman material. But maybe that is like comparing cone heads to pants suits.

5 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by LoveBC on 11/09/2016 at 9:41 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@oak:

In every - single - election since the voting rights act killed Jim Crow until Obama , African Americans have voted at or more percentage for Republicans. Trump is an abject failure in reaching out to other groups.



http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

2004: Bush 11%

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

2000: Bush 9%

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

1996: Dole 12%

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

1992: Bush 10%

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

1988: Bush 11%

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

1984: Reagan 9%

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

1980: Reagan 14%


http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-el…

1976: Ford 17%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9457/election-p…

1972, 1968: Nixon 13%, 12% (non-White, asians/latinos were smaller groups then)



Your chart's root data source:
http://jointcenter.org/sites/default/files…

they largely agree election by election by election. Challenging given the sources are a mix of preference data and random samples.

1 like, 1 dislike
Posted by datGuy on 11/09/2016 at 9:28 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

And really? You want a constitutional convention when there are still enough people in this nation to install a man like Donald Trump as President? That's a real brainiac idea.

1 like, 8 dislikes
Posted by Brunetto Latini on 11/09/2016 at 9:06 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@BL - The Democrats fielding a poor candidate led to their loss, not people who found Clinton unacceptable, and therefore voted their conscience. The DNC made their choice, knowing full well that they were alienating a large and vocal progressive Sanders movement. These incipient changes in the electorate which we have talked about before are real, and this electoral result is proof positive that I was correct in my reading of them. How strongly or quickly that the newer issues replace the old Moral Majority platform planks is uncertain. But the fact of that change occurring is not.

10 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by OakTree on 11/09/2016 at 9:04 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

Grove, excellent point. The democrats need to have an honest, inward look at themselves to see were they went wrong, and why the white working class left the party, and now the African American working and middle classes are also beginning to leave the party. In my lifetime, and I am currently in my mid-50s, I have seen tremendous change. When I was younger, several of the people I knew that had good jobs in manufacturing voted for democrats. These people were predominately socially conservative. As these jobs dried up and went overseas, the democratic leadership blamed the republicans, but interesting enough, the workers then started voting for republicans.
It appears to me, as a former Fraserite and now east Memphian, someone that is between the working/middle class and as an individual whose income is split between a salary and investments that the dems have lost interest in the working people and middle class, and have more interests in the fringes of society, such as criminals, multi-generational welfare benefit receivers, et al. This is just my opinion, but I believe many democrats actually dislike working class people. HRC called half of Trump supporters deplorable. For an Eli, this was a stupid thing to say. Bill never would have made this mistake, just another kind of oral mistake.
While every American is entitled to representation, the fact is the folks I have mentioned above often have a way of not showing up to vote.
I used to vote a democratic ticket, than I became a mixed ballot voter, and now I vote a straight republican ticket although I have never joined a political party.
It was ballsy for democrats, especially southern democrats to push for civil rights back in the 60's. But now we have democrats live Cohen and HRC that do not make a decision unless first talking to a focus group or consultant.

4 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by LoveBC on 11/09/2016 at 9:03 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

Watch and see. Donald Trump can do nothing without the Republican majority, and he has Mike Pence to compensate for his inexperience. The people that elected him are motivated by oppositon to modernity, to same-sex marriage, to all the changes occurring in society. However much he may support gay rights, his constituency and his allies in Congress do not.

Your Green Party garnered less than 2000 votes in Shelby County, and perhaps just enough votes in swing states to have thrown the election for Trump. So sing your praises of a 21st century political order in its infancy, but the dinosaurs haven't ossified yet.

4 likes, 6 dislikes
Posted by Brunetto Latini on 11/09/2016 at 8:53 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@datGuy - Trump got 8% this year. Here is the historic data:

http://blackdemographics.com/wp-content/up…

3 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by OakTree on 11/09/2016 at 8:53 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@BL - I wonder if the discomfort you must certainly now be feeling, will translate into a personal motivation to work for change in the workings of our democracy? I have been committed to this for some time now. I think there are a large number of people who see why we need a constitutional convention. Clinton won the popular vote, but not the Whitehouse. This seems to be a pattern. I don't think I like the theft of power from the people by these 'elector' personages. The longer I live, the less acceptable I find the arrangement.

Still, as I've said before, I don't think you really need to worry about the state of protections of your civil rights. The Donald is more interested in money than prosecuting social conservatism. I'd bet he will spend more time on trade and infrastructure than that stuff.

9 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by OakTree on 11/09/2016 at 8:45 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

My thoughts are colored by the fact I'm gay. Sorry, Oak, but it would be a waste of my time to talk to a straight Green liberal about the Supreme Court.

1 like, 2 dislikes
Posted by Brunetto Latini on 11/09/2016 at 8:30 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

I know you voted for Stein. You've said it repeatedly. That was my point.

Posted by Brunetto Latini on 11/09/2016 at 8:27 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

@BL - Are you talking to me?

I voted for Stein. Neither Trump nor Clinton were my choice at all. Second, third or fourth. The only pleasure I derive from this situation, is that Trump's election is certain to shake up certain people, like you, who are so entrenched in an ossified prejudice of 'left' and 'right', that they are incapable of seeing how such categorization is increasingly meaningless.

The politics of the 21st Century will be about work, automation, and how our societies deal with the valuation of human life, beyond the simple shorthand of a day's wages.

We have discussed this in other threads.

Since I am a student of history, I do find significant fascination, spiced with an appropriate dose of trepidation, in this unexpected turn of events. But I remain hopeful.

How are -you- feeling, Citizen Brunetto?

8 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by OakTree on 11/09/2016 at 8:22 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

Grove: "And yes that even crossed racial lines, as he took home a higher percentage of the African American vote than any Republican since the Civil Rights era".

That is FALSE

Nixon received more
Ford received more
Reagan received more
Bush 1 received more
Dole received more
Bush 2 received more
McCain & Romney received less - to the 1st African American presidential candidate ever

I guess if the Civil Rights era started in 2008, then Grove is right.

This is how @#$% happens, people just lie about all sorts crap.

5 likes, 6 dislikes
Posted by datGuy on 11/09/2016 at 7:56 PM

Re: “In Huge Upset, Trump Defeats Clinton

Well, thank God you got Donald Trump as a second choice.

2 likes, 7 dislikes
Posted by Brunetto Latini on 11/09/2016 at 7:37 PM

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