@LoveBC - I'm just tired of the presumption that I have to choose between bad and worse. We need a more parliamentarian style to our governance. We need more than two perspectives in order to avoid a pendulum effect in policy.
Oak, BL and Thoughtful - The democrats and their focus groups have been crapping on the non-college educated, socially conservative, working white man for too long. It finally bit democrats on the ass. Being a hep cat can only take one so far.
Is it just me, or is anyone else wondering if the dems will get rid of the super delegates? IMHO, i see super delegates as a dis to the rank and file, sort of an Orwellian view that big brother knows what's best.
I've seen the newscasts of latte sipping crowd protesting the results of Trump winning, should some of that anger be directed at the dems machinations of ramming though an establishment figure?
Oak, Reb, and BL, please weigh in.
Revel in that fleeting political statement, Thoughtful. There are 4 years of a Trump administration just offstage. I can and do blame disaffected and unreasonable, former Democrat voters for this fiasco. Lots and lots and lots of people were just as unhappy as y'all were at the treatment of Bernie Sanders and the hijacking of our political organizations by the Clinton machine. But we voted for her anyway because we're adults instead of entitled brats. If you wanted a reckoning, the time to demand it was AFTER THE ELECTION.
No, the reality, is that the Democrats' cynical decision to snuff idealistic change in their own party, and instead run HRC, lost them the support of the people who could have meant a Democrat victory. The volume of Stein supporters (presumably liberal surrogates) was less than Johnson supporters (presumably conservative surrogates) in every state, so your argument that voting Green led to a Trump victory is incorrect, mathematically. You can't blame this on third party voters. The HRC political machine killed the Democrats' chance of victory with their fratracide of Bernie Sanders.
Yada, yada, yada, sociopath, yada, yada ...
The reality is that your (plural) pollyanna idealism has elected an unqualified, vile, unashamed demagogue to the presidency.
@BL - The general tendency for idealism to motivate citizens to work for positive political change is a constant in our Republic, and has been manifest in everything from the Declaration of Independence to the Civil Rights Movement.
It isn't being a 'pollyanna' to believe in that established principle, although a selfish sociopath like you may think it so.
Old cranks may turn into cynics as they age, but there are also people of much life experience who remain hopeful, optimistic, and engaged. That's a personal choice.
If you are upset with this demonstration of our democracy at work, then either you do something to change how the system functions, or you must reconcile yourself to similar outcomes in the future. As I have mentioned before, I have a vested interest in the future, because I have kids to worry about. So I'm going to continue to remain engaged and active as long as I live and breathe.
But if you're talking about working with people in a constitutional convention -- which is hardly worth discussing as the possibility is so remote -- then you're tripping over your pollyanna idealism just the same. A constitutional convention with the participation of theocrats, fascist types, left-wing radicals, et al might be something comparable to the opening of Pandora's box. Please wait until the sensible among us are deceased to begin your tampering with the republic.
Yes, I know. That's what Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren did when they went out campaigning for Hillary Clinton. That's what lots of Bernie Sanders voters, including me, did when they voted for Hillary Clinton. But that isn't what ideal-bound voters who went for the Green Party did.
Oak, in response to your 7:20 pm response to our friend Grove, I have to agree, the dems did shoot themselves in the posterior. Now, I cannot get the image of Bill out of my head saying in that raspy, populous 1992 voice saying "I feel your pain."
Bernie has to agree - "we shot ourselves in the butt and the hole is Yuge."
@BL - If you you want to wait until there aren't any people whose opinion you disagree with left in America, then you are going to be waiting a long time. If on the other had, you realize that even people who you disagree with might want to do something which would be good for everyone, then you can work WITH those people you disagree with to accomplish that goal.
We call this idea of working with people you may disagree with 'politics'.
@BL I enjoy reading your viewpoints, but I believe you are a little narrow of your view points of Trump supporters. Most working people I know have a live and let live opinion of gay people. Maybe my view of Trump supporters is equally narrow, but I believe many of Trump's supporters see themselves as frustrated people that flipped the bird to the republican establishment during the primaries, and then flipped the bird to the coastal elites during the general election.
One Trump point I agree with is that this country has negotiated some incredibly bad trade deals that have been detrimental to America, especially those in the manufacturing sector. However, whenever I hear about building a wall, I not only think of the incredible expense, the negative cost to benefit factor, and even the extreme environmental impact - I am also reminded that walls are actually not good protection. I am not an historian, most of my history knowledge came from watching the History channel, but it has been said that the Great Wall of China actually bankrupted whatever dynasty ran China at the time (help me out again Bric) and that the Germans dissed the Maginot Line by going over it, around it, and then attacking it from behind.
Don't know about you all, but I ain't going to hold Donald to the wall promise.
@datGuy - I was agreeing with you. That's why I put the chart in there.
Oak, good points. It is said that there are seven different types of intelligence. I may upset several of my conservative friends by writing this, but HRC is very bright in almost all areas. My "smart" cousin graduated from Yale LS like HRC, and HRC does have a high powered legal mind and organizational abilities. She is also well motivated and has an inner toughness I admire. In fact, most of us would have liked HRC as our lawyer at least at one point in our lives.
But, we all have holes in our intelligence. HRC comes across to me as being aloof and non-caring, sort of a mercenary mentality.
Although I have heard that HRC is friendly on a small scale, I feel that she does not read us mortals well. For example, I read, but don't remember where, and perhaps Bric will help out a bro, that Hillary was seen reading a book at a Razorback game back when Bill was the gov. Geez, what a dis to one of my Alma Maters. Social intelligence is Bill's strongest point IMHO.
To me, and I know this is a weird comparison, but I think of her as the Dan Akroid of politics, a strong back-up, and behind the scenes type, but just not leading man/woman material. But maybe that is like comparing cone heads to pants suits.
In every - single - election since the voting rights act killed Jim Crow until Obama , African Americans have voted at or more percentage for Republicans. Trump is an abject failure in reaching out to other groups.
2004: Bush 11%
2000: Bush 9%
1996: Dole 12%
1992: Bush 10%
1988: Bush 11%
1984: Reagan 9%
1980: Reagan 14%
1976: Ford 17%
1972, 1968: Nixon 13%, 12% (non-White, asians/latinos were smaller groups then)
Your chart's root data source:
they largely agree election by election by election. Challenging given the sources are a mix of preference data and random samples.
And really? You want a constitutional convention when there are still enough people in this nation to install a man like Donald Trump as President? That's a real brainiac idea.
@BL - The Democrats fielding a poor candidate led to their loss, not people who found Clinton unacceptable, and therefore voted their conscience. The DNC made their choice, knowing full well that they were alienating a large and vocal progressive Sanders movement. These incipient changes in the electorate which we have talked about before are real, and this electoral result is proof positive that I was correct in my reading of them. How strongly or quickly that the newer issues replace the old Moral Majority platform planks is uncertain. But the fact of that change occurring is not.
Grove, excellent point. The democrats need to have an honest, inward look at themselves to see were they went wrong, and why the white working class left the party, and now the African American working and middle classes are also beginning to leave the party. In my lifetime, and I am currently in my mid-50s, I have seen tremendous change. When I was younger, several of the people I knew that had good jobs in manufacturing voted for democrats. These people were predominately socially conservative. As these jobs dried up and went overseas, the democratic leadership blamed the republicans, but interesting enough, the workers then started voting for republicans.
It appears to me, as a former Fraserite and now east Memphian, someone that is between the working/middle class and as an individual whose income is split between a salary and investments that the dems have lost interest in the working people and middle class, and have more interests in the fringes of society, such as criminals, multi-generational welfare benefit receivers, et al. This is just my opinion, but I believe many democrats actually dislike working class people. HRC called half of Trump supporters deplorable. For an Eli, this was a stupid thing to say. Bill never would have made this mistake, just another kind of oral mistake.
While every American is entitled to representation, the fact is the folks I have mentioned above often have a way of not showing up to vote.
I used to vote a democratic ticket, than I became a mixed ballot voter, and now I vote a straight republican ticket although I have never joined a political party.
It was ballsy for democrats, especially southern democrats to push for civil rights back in the 60's. But now we have democrats live Cohen and HRC that do not make a decision unless first talking to a focus group or consultant.
By MIcaela Watts, Josh Cannon, & Toby Sells
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