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Re: “Remembering Irvin Salky: One of a Kind

What a Gent ! Irvin was a large piece of Memphis Rest in Peace Mr. Salky

Posted by James Rhule on 05/22/2017 at 1:19 AM

Re: “The White League

:) and Brichy,
I believe the library was burned, not stomped, and burned several times, so all those may have been a reason. It was certainly a target a latter day Abrahamic cults.
I'm not sure how it compares with dime-store racist displays....
And little dude, I hope all that obelisk hugging ain't making you late for school.

0 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by CL Mullins on 05/21/2017 at 12:44 PM

Re: “The White League

@cl

Brichy says hugging the obelisk is a beautiful and natural thing. yaaaayyy!

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by :) on 05/21/2017 at 6:45 AM

Re: “The White League

@cl

So, tell me, was the Library of Alexandria stomped out because of is racisism? It's misogyny? It's general badness? Maybe it was just an accident. A 600 year long accident. That makes lots of sense.

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Posted by Bric-a-Brac on 05/21/2017 at 4:57 AM

Re: “Highly Invisible

Walking past security looking like a workman? Unnoticed? Who knew? I mean, except for workmen, who knew?

Posted by Bric-a-Brac on 05/21/2017 at 4:38 AM

Re: “The White League

Oak,
I know, I just like pickin at your brain. Gives me plenty to consider.

I want to float down to the Gulf. My maternal family goes back many generations on the Ohio and Mississippi, starting on the docks and working up to the wheel house. My grandfather died before I could accompany him down to his beloved New Orleans. Major regret.

How do you float now?

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by CL Mullins on 05/20/2017 at 9:14 PM

Re: “The White League

@CL - Always like discussing these things with you as well.

About New Orleans and the surrounding region though. I'm intimately familiar with it, its people, and its history, both academically and practically, as I've made it a lifelong mission to boat all of the lower Mississippi, and all the Gulf Coastal region.

Have you ever had a chance to do a float from here to the Gulf, and the local bayous between Baton Rouge and the Delta Wildlife Refuge? One of my hobbies.

Anyway, I really don't object to the 'Liberty Monument' removal per se, and more or less your assessment of what it represents. As I've noted before.

But worries about the slippery slope of trying to eliminate the ugly pieces of history still persist. That's my thing here.

Posted by OakTree on 05/20/2017 at 8:26 PM

Re: “The White League

Oak,

First of all, I really enjoy your take on this.

Last of all, the Chitimacha lived in a much larger place than NOLA, a fine region you should visit. And while they don't have all they had in 1491,what they have now, they always had. The McIlhenneys mistook people for looms and themselves as saviors, not an unusual liberal ethic even then.

Now, the monument, and I've seen better in Oxford cemeteries, screams white supremacy in a city that is 60% black. It, like the Mississippi flag, is only about subjugation and the oppression of the natives. It has neither the grace or immediacy of grafitti. Just because someone poured some plaster over a turd 100 years ago does nor make it special.

This ain't burning books. This isn't even ancient greek pedophillia pottery
And I don't think equalitarianism and ani slavery is a passing ethos

Posted by CL Mullins on 05/20/2017 at 6:10 PM

Re: “The White League

@CL - I was too busy yesterday to reply to this after you wrote it, but let's continue the discussion, because I think it's important. You ask:

"..At what point does racist, marbleized or bronzed, graffiti become a cultural element?.."

First, it's not graffiti. That's its own specific thing, which has been studied quite a bit by art historians and anthropologists, so let's not conflate two things here, this is complicated enough.

The idea of a 'culture element', is an anthropological construct, which refers to some symbol, artifact, language, or value system that characterizes a culture or subculture.

Essentially, one can understand the Reconstruction South as an American subculture which had recently been conquered after the Civil War when these monuments were built. That's why PersonalAccountability's observation, that the Chitimacha tribal battles to hold onto their lands in what is now New Orleans, are very much the original 'Lost Cause', is so apropos.

When a conquered people has to face subjugation, it creates an existential dilemma. Is there, after that fact, a legitimate right to a separate identity? In order to answer that question, in most cases, a mythos is built up, defining group identity, despite domination by a hostile outside world. That mythos can take many forms.

It can be linguistic, as in Wales, where Welch eventually was declared the official language, despite centuries of English domination and attempts to extinguish it. Many native tribes in the Americas, and all slaves, had children forcibly removed from their families, and taught a foreign language such as English, or Spanish, or French, as a means to enculturate them with the dominant 'civilized' culture's attitudes and prejudices.

It doesn't really matter whether or not the cultures being so used were all that great or not. This is still a reprehensible thing to do. Some of them were cannibals, actually. I suspect that's a mite worse than systemic racism, but there's an argument to be made there about whether or not there's much of a difference between consuming flesh or the spirit in either case.

But the culture element we are talking about in the New Orleans case, is monumental architecture. Humans have a long tradition of building stuff to identify who they are. It can be a column in Trafalgar Square, or an arch in Paris, or a pyramid in Teotihuacan.

When Landrieu moved the 'Liberty Monument', he was acting to extinguish a focal point for what has become a problematic divisive threat to the forces of 'civilization'; i.e. the dominant culture's world view and consensus.

In this there is much precedent.

The Spanish did it by building Catholic cathedrals on top of the pyramids in Mesoamerica. The Nazis did it by marching through the Arc de Triomphe de l'Etoile, to denigrate France's sense of Napoleonic superiority. The Estonians did it by tearing down the statue of the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn, and relocating the graves all the Russian soldiers there, after local consensus decided in 2007 that they were oppressors, not liberators.

The reason why I'm bringing all this up, is that in each of these cases, what was happening, was that a piece of history was being demoted or destroyed, in order to serve the dominant cultural ethos of the time.

That last part is what's important. That's what is problematic. Because that ethos changes. And what is obliterated, after all the history is destroyed, may be lost to the sands of time.

That concern here is legitimate.

P.S., The Chitimacha are NOT where God put them, they got pushed out of New Orleans, and their lunch money was taken. The only reason they are in any better position than the Chickasaw, is that biblical thing about the meek inheriting the Earth, and a particularly wealthy and powerful political ally, who advocated for them in the early 1900's, named Sarah McIlhenny. So thank Tabasco sauce for there being more than six families left.

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Posted by OakTree on 05/20/2017 at 1:02 PM

Re: “The White League

Oak,
At what point does racist, marbleized or bronzed, graffiti become a cultural element. And if there is " general human tendency to macerate and dismember, and stomp into nothingness, all culture elements of what has been conquered." isn't that a human element worthy of expression?
Is the White League really more worthy of celebration than Speck? Isn't he something of a godhead with blackheads when it comes to the violence dem white folks sought to glorify?
And quit dissing the Chitimacha, they're still here right where they've always been.

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by CL Mullins on 05/19/2017 at 4:14 PM

Re: “Residents Weigh Merits of Racist Tourist District Against Chances of a Dark Apocalypse

So no sno-cones, then? I came for the sno-cones.
Bugger.

Posted by OakTree on 05/19/2017 at 1:53 PM

Re: “Residents Weigh Merits of Racist Tourist District Against Chances of a Dark Apocalypse

The big black box with yellow text that reads "PARODY" at the top of the article might be a subtle hint.

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by Planx Constant on 05/19/2017 at 12:05 PM

Re: “Bartender Turns Off TV During Band Set, World Ends

Commercial Appeal headline: "Bartender Ends World! Conservatives Hardest Hit!"

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Terry Twyman 1 on 05/19/2017 at 10:29 AM

Re: “Highly Invisible

Did our President take his golf clubs? Lotta sand on those courses.

2 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Tom Prestigiacomo on 05/19/2017 at 10:02 AM

Re: “The White League

@CL - I am quite aware why they were erected. In fact, I've pointed that out, their history, and the reaction to Reconstruction that they truly represent, here in the Flyer multiple times. I am also aware of how the standard of moral acceptability in the general population changes over time, such that what once was tolerable, no longer is so.

I get it. But that isn't really what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about, is the general human tendency to macerate and dismember, and stomp into nothingness, all culture elements of what has been conquered. I'm trying to get at what the long term effects of that are, cumulatively, for us, as a species.

Because what is lost by that tendency is significant. The Chitimacha are just an example. Reductio ad absurdum arguments about Richard Speck are specious.

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Posted by OakTree on 05/19/2017 at 8:09 AM

Re: “The White League

I've lived in the Memphis area for about 20 years. However, I was born and raised in the northeast so I'm originally, well, a Yankee I guess. My impression of these monuments has always been, outside of being in a historical battlefield, inothing more than symbols of hate.

1 like, 1 dislike
Posted by Timeout4 on 05/19/2017 at 7:32 AM

Re: “The White League

Oak,
These monuments were erected to further the lost cause, to threaten the populace. Removing this monument doesn't obliterate the history, although leaving it in a pile of rubble would make more sense and contribute to the discussion.
Hey, you wouldn't expect the community to allow a Richard Speck memorial outside the South Chicago Community Hospital?

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Posted by CL Mullins on 05/19/2017 at 5:19 AM

Re: “The White League

@CL- I thought I was pretty clear about cultural chauvinism, and the tendency of political victors to try and obliterate whatever came before them, or against which they have previously struggled. It's one of the worst characteristics of mankind. That concept appears to me to be applicable here.

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Posted by OakTree on 05/18/2017 at 10:00 PM

Re: “The White League

Oak
And yet the Chitimacha are still where God dropped them
http://www.chitimacha.gov/history-culture/…
and the Chickasaw are regulated to Oklahoma.
Perhaps you meant the Chakchiuma, who were from, well, just about where I'm sitting.

But what has that got to do with this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CYTcQUKTV…

PersonalAccountability,
That's quite a user name. Was hygienebeyondreproach already taken?

1 like, 2 dislikes
Posted by CL Mullins on 05/18/2017 at 8:30 PM

Re: “The White League

@PersonalAccountability - Indeed. This impulse to 'save' things frequently disregards whatever processes that are already in motion. In the case of the Chitimacha, the colonization of Florida by the Spanish decades earlier had already deposited infectious diseases which reduced the indigenous Chitimacha population to a few hundred/couple thousand by the time the Western settlers of New Orleans ran them out of there. The hapless Chitimacha, with their shell arrows and sacred trees, took refuge with other tribes just out of the reach of the Europeans, and eventually lost their language, and all independent identity.

It's much the same way that the English treated the Welsh. Since the 'civilized' peoples of the world want a particular world order, they tend to prosecute wars of conquest, until the indigenous cultures wherever they land are obliterated. Our glorious leaders are doing that now in other parts of the world. Their excuses are manifold. You've gotta be impressed by the magnitude of such ignorance of cultural history. The immensity of our failure as a people to value this history, and of our social and cultural chauvinism, is really hard to comprehend in its entirety.

It's truly profound.

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Posted by OakTree on 05/18/2017 at 8:10 PM

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