Just wondering, since all those programs were really put in place to help the whites, and the poor black folks were unable of get education and decent jobs, and all of that.....
How do you account for all those blacks who have succeeded in getting out of poverty?
How do you account for all the educated, successful black lawyers, doctors, educators, businessmen, civil servants? How do you account for the growing and prosperous black middle class? How do you account for a black President?
How do you account for the black underclass who will not help themselves out of poverty, despite all the resources available to help them? What do you propose to change their perception and start planning for the future?
Or does your social history of the country stop 50 years ago?
I suspect that is the case.
I truly wish whoever it is that owns/bottles/markets Willingham's sauces and rubs would consider opening a restaurant here. When it was on Brookhaven Circle, Willingham's was where I would always take guests for, in my opinion, the absolute best Memphis BBQ ribs. Bring back the W'ham!!
Now, that is more like it! You have posted a truism that many people just gloss over.
I see you use the gop, conservative narrative of "more free stuff". That is a misnomer. What free stuff are you talking about? There are no free programs that are designed to lift people up out of poverty, that is, people that have been subjected to what blacks have been and are still treated like second-class citizens in many respects today.
Food stamps were not given to target poor, black people that were systematically deprived of an equal opportunity to make a decent living. Food stamps were the result of a scheme to save the agricultural system and to keep prices of food low so as not to further impoverish the poor rural whites, particularly in LBJ's home state and former district in Texas. Yes, the target of those programs were directly tied to them and the rural whites that populated Appalachia. But, an unintended consequence of those actions had a calming effect on the riots of the early 60's by having a calming effect on the inner city poor blacks. Had it not been for the food stamp program, many farmers, especially white, family, small farms would have went out of business, thus creating a shortage of staples caused an increase in the price of food all over the U. S. with great damage been done to poor whites from impoverished areas, especially in the south.
Housing subsidies were instituted as a way of saving cities where there was a large underclass of people that couldn't afford decent housing, white, and to transfer money to white rental property owners. When it came to blacks, the aside of those housing vouchers was to keep them in a second-class situation by giving them housing vouchers instead of concentrating on equal opportunity to decent jobs and equal pay. In other words, the housing vouchers delayed the move by blacks for fair employment, while at the same time, transferring money from the government to white rental property owners.
Oh yes, let us now talk about the free government, Obama, phone. Again, a lie! The free phone was instituted for rural, whites, that didn't have the infra-structure for telephones. The major telephone companies would not lay lines, etc to sparsely populated, poor rural areas because of the cost vs rewards. That program was started by the great Ronald Reagan. It was escalated to include wireless by none other than George W. Bush. It was yet another way of helping poor whites and transferring money from government coffers to white owners of the telephone companies.
All of those programs was put into place to help poor whites. Via the equal protection clause of the constitution, those programs, some challenged successfully in courts, had to be given to blacks also, but, not without a fight.
While the poor whites used these subsistence programs to sustain themselves until they could acquire skills to get decent jobs, the blacks were denied the opportunity to get skills through education and even those that did were still kept from getting the decent jobs at equal pay because of discrimination. So, consequently, the poor, uneducated whites moved up out of poverty, but, the poor blacks, because of discrimination that also bred injustice were left languishing in poverty, with no immediate future for getting out. This is why, to this very day, blacks live in the now and know nothing about planning for the future, sacrificing the now for a better future.
It is amazing that you, as an educated American, just don't know anything about the social history of this country. That lack of knowledge or casual indifference still exists today. That is a major part of the problem. Perceptions, whether true or not, is more dangerous than the truth.
I suggest that you and others start reading credible books on the plight of the African American in this country, from the past to the present. You will probably get a better insight on how it was and how it still is.
As an aside. Did you know that the great, late Maxine Smith and her husband, Vasco, a dentist, had to use a proxy to buy a house in Germantown? That was in the early 70's or later, I think? Grove, you only know what you know through the perspective of those who taught you. What you were taught was not the truth of the matter.
AP said exactly what I was thinking. Making more money and free stuff available doesn't change the mindset. It just makes the situation more bearable for those in it, and they have less motivation to try to get out.
In my wife's family, her grandfather's family lost everything in the Depression. He grew up literally having clothes made out of old potato sacks at times. His family still understood the value of education and work though. He ended up starting his own business from scratch and died a millionaire. My point in using that example is to say that it's the values he was taught that allowed him to not let a cycle develop for his family.
The tricky part, as sickofsalad suggests is teaching that value system to those that just don't have it. I don't know the solution there. How do you teach a community to value education when they don't? The kids are not going to value it if the parents don't. The only way the parents will value it is if they can be shown the value of education. I don't know how you are shown the value of education without experiencing it, and I don't know how you force someone to experience education if they refuse to avail themselves to that opportunity. That's the true root of the cycle of poverty, and it's a tough cycle to break. I don't know the answer.
Maybe a campaign to highlight people who grew up in poverty and availed themselves to the education opportunity is the solution. As it stands, those that are highlighted as getting out are those that play sports or are entertainers. Maybe a large scale public media campaign to highlight individuals who grew up in poverty and made something of themselves through education is the answer. Make those people into heroes and role models. That's the only idea I have.
"But no, to them, it seems as though you pulled the rug completely out from under them."
Who is the YOU in that statement? I am confused about the statement. Aren't the people that did the outsourcing the school board that is made up of a majority of Memphis citizens? So that can't be me.
Bullying suburbs by lawsuits is just that. Bullying. The majority of the people in the suburbs want MSDs so why and try bullying us out of it. How is the payroll tax fair? It is bullying everyone that does not live in Memphis but works there. Are there a lot of cities in the nation that do that to their suburbs and adjacent counties and even into another state. As for threatening that Memphis will annex those parts of the county if they try and incorporate is really funny. Memphis is going to annex them anyway no matter what and those people know it. No surprise, just look at past history. Too bad they can't go into another county or state for that matter. They probably have some of their legal beagles working on doing that now. LOL
One thing some people will never ever understand is the part of leaving the annexation areas. The home/property prices/values drops. When it drops that means LESS in tax revenue. It doesn't matter if all the houses are bought are not. When a $250,000 house is taxed for $2000 a year and then when people move out and the property value drops to say $175,000 the taxes will be $1400. $2000-$1400=$600 in LOST taxes. And there are an inordinate amount of EMPTY houses in Memphis. A lot of them Memphis does not know who owns them and it takes them years to sell it while never collecting a dime.
I agree with most of what you said. But I have learned something here from a poster that African Americans do not like the national sit down restaurants. Because they do not serve the food that they like. That's fine. But I guess Memphis should have some sort of a breakdown on nationality and race of the over one million tourists to Graceland. Then cater to the majority. That might not be possible because I think the mass amount of tourist come on EP's birthday and his death. It is still busy the rest of the time. It does seem odd there are not quality hotels and motels in walking distance to Graceland. The city should be begging corporate hotels to build near Graceland. I know other places in the nation with a massive amount of tourists take advantage of the crowd. From 6 Flags to Disney World. The hotels and motels charge a premium the closer they are to the attraction. Someone will probably tell me I am wrong but that is just what I have seen in my travels.
The most important aspect in a child's education is parental involvement in the child's education. The 2nd most important is the culture in which the child is raised. The 3rd most important is the school system and its teachers.
In impoverished areas, all 3 of these aspects are typically suffering. Anyone who has spent more than a hundred hours in the classroom volunteering will become very aware that the socioeconomic level of the family and the area in which they live is the current problem.
The dynamics of inner city life can't change overnight. We need to look at how these areas became populated in the first place and discover ways to reverse engineer that sort of phenomenon. I suspect that much of the cause of the inner city turmoil goes back to the oppressive nature of racism prior to and during the Civil Rights movement. If that were not true, then we would not have black ghettos. Giving children role models and the ability to make better choices is helpful, but many of them lack the motivation to take those opportunities because that is not what they see going on with their elders. Or, if they do have the drive, many have not inherited, by way of parental environment, the needed perseverance and/or skills to overcome, to push forward.
Until people in the inner city have hope, nothing will change. Hope involves something very tangible and I do not know what the answer is. I can only say that change, in this case, cannot possibly happen in large leaps. The more we all accept responsibility to our fellow man, the quicker the results.
Yes, I understand your way of thinking.
Exactly what Grove and I have been saying.
It is the "blacks in poverty" mindset that is the underlying problem. Nothing will change as long as that mindset stays the same.
I have no doubt that lot of poor blacks share your victimization mindset and there are plenty of articles for you to choose from. All proposing more free stuff, I bet.
Nothing anybody can do to help you (not you personally) as long as you will not change that mindset first. Call it a value system if you like, it is the same thing.
The thought that money has not been thrown at the poverty problem is laughable. All that free stuff costs somebody a ton. Further thoughts that raising the minimum wage ( which means more free money for no more effort) , or forcing workers to join unions, and pay union dues, as a condition of their employment will in anyway relieve poverty is no better. Unless you are talking about some of the Public Sector unions where no particular education or skills are needed, I guess.
In this country, education is the key out of poverty. Everyone knows it. Everyone knows how to get it. Blacks cannot escape poverty until they have employable skills. Blacks cannot get those skills without getting an education first. Everybody on this planet knows that, especailly those millions of blacks who have escaped poverty already.
Here is another truth for you to consider: Those that stay in poverty, generation after generation, don't do so because they don't know how to get out. They know. There are also many people who will help them get out, the government among the rest. Millions of poverty stricken have already escaped. But you have to get off your ass and do it. Nobody can do it for you. Not the whites, not the wealthy, not the government. Only you.
Yet another truth: Those that remain their entire lives in poverty do so because they are familiar with that lifestyle, and there are thousands who will make them as comfortable as possible in their poverty. Free money, free food, free housing, free clothes, free telephones, lots of free stuff. All their lives. All to make them more comfortable.
All given without the slightest appreciation of another truth: That which is free has no value to him that gets it. On the contrary. Get free stuff long enough and you begin to think you are entitled to it. Somehow getting that stuff becomes a "right" doesn't it? Amusing that those doing the giving are always so puzzled when that free stuff never makes a difference in getting those folks out of poverty. Also amusing is the typical liberal reaction: Give them even more free stuff!
That 'wrench" you described is more often a series of bad decisions blacks make themselves rather than anything done by some mythical "The Man." Self sabotage is pretty common among the poor, we all have seen it.
Yes, I comprehend the truth very well.
I miss-spelled a word that I know you will catch me on. The correct spelling of the word is didactic, not diadactic. the phrase is didactic disdain, made famous by that eloquent speaker, former vice-president, Spiro Theodore Agnew.
I also see that Homersimpson has straightened you out on a few things that I posted. Maybe now you won't be so quick to try and use standardized test as your crutch.
Taxing residents to death isn't the problem solver. De-annexing is the answer is. At some point we are gonna have to realize that we are gonna have to bring in outside dollars to help supplement the tax burden here. We have a cash cow with Elvis, music in general, and historical importance. We don't cash in enough on those things. We leave a lot of money on the table with the area around Whitehaven not being up to par for tourist. They are staying in North Mississippi. Say what you want, but other cities capitalize on our divisiveness. One thing I know, if the wealthy don't live work and play in certain areas of towns, they are definitely not gonna invest in them. When you have a million people a year come to Graceland from all over the world and they can't even stay in quality hotels or have any national sit down chain restaurants in the area, something is wrong with that picture. We don't have enough family activities to make tourist wanna come here. So, the burden is on use as residents to keep the lights on and the potholes fixed. Other cities like ATL and Nashville, they recognize their cash cows and milk the hell out of them which spurs other industries to trickle in after the fact. I say all of that to say that we have to do a better job of giving people reasons to come here. That in turn will help alleviate some of the tax burdens that we feel in the city. It's simple solution, but it is a real solution.
It is ironic that someone would equate using the democratic process with bullying! When the majority vote for something and it passes, that is not bullying, but, rather the American way. remember, "government of the people, by the people and for the people"?
I guess the passage of the voter id law, gun carry on employers parking lots, the msd laws were a form of bullying by the state, right? Let us face it, one cannot have it both ways. I didn't like those laws, however, I never considered it bullying. I thought that it was the majority of the General Assembly working it's will in a democratic way. Was I wrong?
Tennessee is not ruled by referendums. They have no power to enact laws or to repeal them. Only the General Assembly can do that. So, de-annexation groups of individual citizens will not work. The city of Memphis has already crossed the Rubicon on annexations, they will not turn back. If those citizens that dislike being annexed move, taxes will be paid by someone on the homes they left behind. Even in Foreclosure, the lienholder will still have to pay the taxes, so there is no lost there. If one abandon a paid for home, the city will get it and sell it for next to nothing and it will be bought up in less than a heartbeat. The pain for any of these actions will be, mostly borne by the one who does it. If the General Assembly try to change the annexation laws, Memphis will move to do what it did the last time it was proposed; immediately move to annex ther remaining arrears in it's now, annexation reserve. Look out Fisherville and Eads (Greys Creek)
So, ladies and gentlemen of those annexed areas, put on your big girl and big boy panties and drawers and suck it up.
Been going to 152 for several years now, usually on the third floor, but sometimes on the first floor. I have never witnessed drug sales there, not once. I did see someone try to smoke marijuana in there one time, but the bouncers caught dude within seconds literally, basically tackled him and escorted him out rather promptly.
The reality is that Club 152 makes a ton of money via legitimate sales, so there is no way in hell they would risk it getting shut down for a little extra income from drug sales. The owners probably want to ensure their club is drug free more than the city does. Think how much income they are losing from it being closed right now, especially this past weekend during BBQfest.
The city needs to understand that they make a ton in tax revenues from Beale Street and the restaurants and clubs there. There is a demand for these nightclubs, and that demand is not going away. The tax revenues the city and county collect from sales taxes and property taxes is significant, at least a million bucks a year, from Club 152 alone. That revenue of course funds the schools and (ironically) the police force. That being said, I do think it would be fair for the city to implement some sort of law/policy whereby Club 152 should have to pay for the additional police officers required to police the club and right outside. I am sure another city has implemented such a policy, and it would make sense. Taxation works when those that use city resources pay for them through taxes.
I know you older folks, well, you basically get nothing out of Beale Street, but please remember than many of the younger people in this city enjoy it very much. It is fun, and it is generally safe. My friends and I have been going to Beale for about ten years now, and we have never had one bad incident happen. That being said, of course there has been crime, but the reality is also that there are going to be a few police calls here and there at any club that is on or near Beale when there are 10-15,000 people that come through there every weekend.
You might as well let that value thing v poverty rest. You are looking at it through your privileged, middle class eyes.
Poverty has a direct effect on values. Poverty teaches one simple lesson, that lesson is daily survival.
Money has never been thrown at the problem. That problem is equality in hiring and promotions. The problem is having access to health care. The problem is not having and/or enforcing laws on equality in pay or instituting a higher minimum wage or repealing the right to work laws.
Grove, I am not going to demean myself going any further with you on something that you just can't comprehend. So, goodnight!
You have to almost love the way Memphis sullies a strong word like "Unified".
I don't know whether to cry or laugh.
I had a teacher use the facilitation method in one of my advanced high school courses. It was fantastic.
I don't know that most teachers or even most classes can handle that kind of structure, but at least some portion of that type of work can be very beneficial. Working through problems in small groups can help students pick up concepts quickly. I experienced it first hand.
Back on the poverty issue, my point was that it was the value system, not the poverty itself that's the problem. Throwing money at the problem is fine, but it doesn't solve the problem. I don't know how you teach a community to value education. If someone can figure that one out, you've figured out how to break the cycle.
I like to pin you down so that you will admit to the truth.
I give references to what I post whether it agrees with my thinking or not. I don't play favorites.
I have said that this nation has been struggling with the education of urban impoverished kids for many years. That is why these schemes like charters and state takeovers don't work. They have been tried before. The problem is with the mindset of the families. These families have no long term thinking, let alone planning. They live in the now for their lives and their mothers and fathers lives and even back further has been about daily survival. Your family have probably never experienced that so it is hard for you to understand.
It is too simplistic to say the key to the door is in their hands. They have no idea of what you are talking about. That is why it takes years for improvement to be seen once the cycle of poverty is successfully addressed. It seems to them that every time they try to progress, "the man" throws a wrench into it. Some of it is overt and some of it is subliminal. When desegregation was being pushed, it was the blacks that did all of the sacrificing. It was there schools closed down and their children bused to white schools. This sent an unmistakable message to blacks that their schools were not good enough and that their children were not good enough for whites to be bused to them. The subliminal message was that black children were inferior. Once bused to white schools, blacks were further segregated by being put into special classes while whites continued in regular classes. Btw, this happens even today. Now, under this conservative U. S. Supreme Court majority, it is happening all over again. Whites all over the nation, particularly in the south are breaking away from integrated schools and forming segregated msds. Shelby County is, by far, not the only place it is happening. That reinforces the message that blacks are inferior and should not share the same stage as whites in an equal manner.
I can understand why people get upset at my posts for it is hard to accept the truth, especially when you have never experienced the backhand of poverty and injustice at the same time. Solutions to problems that seem practical is just the opposite to a people that have been mired in the muck and mire of prejudice, poverty, injustice, indifference and diadactic disdain. An example of what I am saying is the practical matter of the school budget. Cuts had to be made. Outsourcing made sense in a practical way, however, when coupled with the past and even present treatment of blacks, it, to them was just another way of depriving blacks of a decent living with benefits. Yes, because of your privileged status, you understand it, but, I guarantee you that impoverished blacks don't. Being practical to the black custodial workers would have been a cut in pay, more percent of their health care cost required, a reduction in pension or even going to a 401K. That could have been done and still achieved the desired results. But no, to them, it seems as though you pulled the rug completely out from under them. The irony of all of this is that you and I will pay more taxes to supplant the loss of wages and benefits that these workers used to have, food stamps, Medicaid, housing subsidies, etc. In essence, the short and long run, you have not saved anything.
Yes, a lot of what you (not personally) are doing is only making things worse. You still refuse to understand that teachers need training in how to teach these students. You can't say that this teacher is good enough for my child, he/she should be good enough for those kids. That too is too simplistic. Numerous studies have shown that this way of thinking is wrong.
AP, from time to time, I will refer you to more articles and/or studies that buttress my way of thinking.
Thanks for the learned and informed reply.
When I read articles slamming charters, vouchers and ASDs it is amazing how often they are written by teachers unions. Or others with a vested money interest in the status quo.
I don't know the springboard to drive innovation in education, but I am guessing that competetion for students, and the funds that go with them, is a real good place to start.
There is the 3-5-7 rule. Advanced students need to see a concept three times and they can usually master it. Normal kids need five times and children with disabilities (read low IQ) need at least seven. (this is a very simple explanation of the theory)
Many of the at risk kids - bubble kids - kids that have low poverty, subgroup issues, etc, are now being placed in classrooms where they get more time. Algebra I kids are meeting for two class periods to master the subject material. Kids at risk for English (ESL) are getting two class periods. This is one reason that every high school in town in going to 7 class periods. Since they only need 22 credits, that pretty much gives every kid a study hall or extra time to spend in their at risk class.
As for the sciences, MCS was smart enough to realize that all AP science need to class periods a while back. The ones getting cheated are the honors kids. There is barely enough time to finish the regular curriculum let alone go any deeper. And honors classes really have a huge span in abilities. The biggest problem is the amount of material they want us to cover in any science.
I wouldn't say that it takes special training to work with urban kids or kids in low poverty. I would say that it first takes an awareness and acknowledgement of their situations. Many teachers do not want to "get involved". I would also say it takes flexibility. Again, not a trait common in teachers. A teacher will get into a mode that is comfortable for them and then that teacher is very unwilling to change. Good teachers adapt to the students.
Another short coming that I see often is the lack of real world experience. Many teachers that come straight from school lack any life experience. Their world view is based on a very narrow set of experiences and exposures. I think this limits what they have to offer - especially in high school. Elementary teachers walk into a classroom with only their personal education experiences, their college education, and their training. My end of year surveys all have statements about my life experience stories. Kids need that "why do I have to learn this" and someone never in the real world really can't answer that sometimes.
Charters provide a way to fill that gap. They use a lot of a video with great teachers and realistic classrooms. I have yet to see a video from MCS that is even remotely realistic or applicable to my teaching circumstances. All white teachers and little color in the kids in the classrooms. Not realistic at all! In the last one, my group had a very hard time agreeing on what was and was not effective.
And OTP is right, just because a kid passes a test doesn't mean they learned the material. Just because you know what two times two equals, doesn't mean you understand the concept of multiplication. That applies to teachers also. Charters have recognized that colleges and universities don't universally or consistently create good teachers. Charters put significant resources into fixing that. All that Gates money has NOT gone towards teacher improvement. Even the STEM community has recognized this and they are putting together some tremendous professional development.
The administration failure that I see is the lack of sharing best practices. There is tons of education research that shows the best "methods" to teach subjects. For instance, science is best taught through group study. Many experienced teachers feel that group study is a form of cheating. Studies show that when teachers act as facilitators rather than instructors, the kids learn more and they enjoy the learning. Kids that are allowed to discover without being told take ownership of that knowledge. And many times kids can explain to kids better than an adult. It's that language/generation thing. A teacher is really more of a manager helping them stay on task and directing them towards answers rather than telling. Lots of teachers feel they have to be a know-it-all and are uncomfortable giving up control.
Charters do not get all the public funds that a regular public school kid gets. There are trade offs. They usually move into preexisting buildings, for certain in the case of ASDs. They still have to pay MLGW and they get charged for food services and other things they get from the system. Technically MCS is only supposed to charge them cost. I'm not buying that one. Charters are good at looking for federal funds. Because of their clientele, they get lots of Title I, IV and V funding. They work at keeping the overhead low so the money is going to the classroom or invested in the teachers, this is how they can offer better pay and incentives. MCS hasn't figured that one out yet. SCS was much better at sending money to the classroom, but even they had more admin than necessary. 26% isn't nearly a big enough cut!
I still can't tell you what the answer is. I don't know anyone who can. In general, charters and vouchers can't be much worse than what large urban districts offer.
What I do know is that charters, ASDs, and vouchers are creating competition. Public school officials have had complete control of funding and they knew they had consistent clients since most could not afford private school. They had the money and they did as they wished with little regard for the kids. The admin types had no incentive to improve. Now that their kingdoms are at risk because there is choice, they are forced to make improvements.
I live in W PA & love the Laurel Highlands.....beautiful country in any/all seasons!
By Hannah Sayle, Chris Herrington, Chris Shaw, Louis Goggans, Greg Akers, Bruce VanWyngarden, Jackson Baker and John Branston
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