Friday, January 20, 2012
What's Your Price? Half a Cent?
Posted by John Branston on Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 12:27 PM
Warning: This post contains mathematical calculations. One of the ways consultants say suburban municipalities could pay for their proposed school systems is a half-cent increase in the local sales tax. This would push the total tax from 9.25 cents to 9.75 cents. It would require a referendum and majority approval by the voters.
Some merchants don't like this idea because it could put them at a competitive disadvantage on, say, Stage Road in Bartlett versus Stage Road in Memphis, where the sales tax would be half a cent less. This tested my mathematical skills to their limit, so I confirmed the numbers with our company accountant, who lives in Mississippi, where the sales tax is 7 percent.
On $1,000 worth of retail purchases, which is a pretty big buy in one lump but not so much over a year or so, the sales tax at a rate of 9.25 percent is $92.50, and at a rate of 9.75 percent the sales tax is $97.50, a difference of $5. Let's call that a "sandwich" worth of savings. At a tax rate of 7 percent, the sales tax is $70, or a savings of $22.50 compared to shopping in Memphis. Let's call that a "dinner" worth of savings. Our accountant says this is why she buys all her groceries in Mississippi, and sees lots of Shelby County license tags in the parking lot.
I get it but I also don't get it. Like most people, I probably have $22.50 in change in various mason jars and cans on my dresser. And I could save $22.50 cents in one weekend by not going out to dinner or to the movies. Why someone would drive out of their way to save sandwich money or dinner money is beyond me, except that I do it myself every week when I scout out the cheapest gas stations or use my Kroger card to save a whopping 3 cents a gallon. Rational creatures we are not.
If we were driven simply by the forces of taxes, I suppose we would all live in Lakeland, which has no property taxes, or in the ritzy Southwind gated community which pays no city property taxes, versus the $3.19 rate in Memphis and the $1.48 rate in Germantown. Or at least we would all heed the signs like the ones on Shelby Drive that say "no city taxes" and separate the annexed from the not-annexed. At the varying tax rates, we are talking about hundreds or thousands of dollars a year. Let's call that a "refrigerator" worth of savings.
My point, and I do have one, is that municipal school district decisions will be driven a lot more by neighborhoods, friends, teachers, school buildings, safety perceptions, test scores, and annexation prospects than by dollars and cents. Especially the sandwich savings and dinner savings of the sales tax.
The property tax is different, but not so much at the lowball rate of 15 cents that the consultants are talking about. I think that is overly optimistic, but we are at the early stage of posturing and negotiations and bluster in this process. Even if a more realistic estimate is an additional 50 cents, suburbs might well decide it is worth it. I have several friends who live in unannexed areas within shouting distance of their annexed neighbors, but they have stayed put. And Memphis, with a combined property tax rate of $7.21 plus a "one-time assessment" last year still has 650,000 residents.
Yes, I know the population trend is not good, but those of us who live in Memphis have our loyalties and our reasons, and they transcend sandwiches, dinners, and refrigerators.
Comments (59)
Showing 1-50 of 59
If I didn't live in Germantown, I would be amused at the Republicans clamoring for higher taxes and trying to pacify the true fiscal conservatives among us (some of whom don't vote Republican) by claiming our property tax rate will still be less than in Memphis. It reminds me of when I heard Paul Krugman tell Terry Gross that trillions of dollars of government spending could be offset by an increase in income tax that would be barely noticeable.
$0.15 or $0.50 per $100 of assessed value still equates to money I can use to pay down my mortgage or invest for retirement or save for future expenses. It irks me no end that instead, it will go to subsidize the education of children whose parents aren't satisfied with the schools I already help to fund ... and aren't willing to make an effort to improve schools that already exist ... and balk at doing what lots of other parents (including mine) have done for decades: sacrifice to pay for private education.
like
dislike
I think you are leaving something out, Brunetto. Your neighbors (at least the ones who can't afford private schools even if they sacrifice) are fighting off a takeover attempt by MCS. I think most of them are satisfied with their schools, they just want to maintain control of them.
By the way, to me at least, you are sounding very petty about investing a small amount of money for what will be a very large return, which will be a school system forever immune from outside interference. Plus, it will leave Martavius Jones with an ostrich sized portion of egg on his face, and that is not without value.
uhoh, he's being no more petty than all the suburbanites who act as if the fates of the suburban cities are not ultimately tied to the fate of Memphis. If Memphis goes the way of Detroit, Collierville will have vacant houses by the gross b/c all the jobs will have moved away.
As an aside, the radical right wing wish to do away with even the very idea of public schools (which have contributed mightily to American prosperity over the last 200 years) is alive and well.
I'm a gay man without kids. I need every dime I can save to ensure I'm not destitute in retirement. I have no use for an additional school system, and I don't believe the realtor-inspired, pre-meltdown mantra about maintaining inflated property values by paying more in property taxes.
Petty? From certain vantage points, perhaps that's apparent. But not from mine. I see a bunch of middle-to-lower middle class "conservative" hypocrites who rail against government handouts for particular groups of people and who defend uber-wealthy people who pay comparably little in taxes. But these "conservatives" are more than willing to tax their middle class neighbors to get whatever they want.
Packrat,
I think the suburbanites are well aware of the linked fate of the city and the suburbs. In fact, that connection has been used by myself and others who have argued against the takeover. We feel that a Memphis takeover of the county schools will, over time, result almost certainly in significant black and white flight from the old SCS areas. Deterioration of the suburbs will make Memphis less attractive to businesses. All of this will cause a decrease in the Shelby County tax base, followed by a decrease in services, an increase in county property taxes, or both, and then it will stay in that loop. There is plenty of historical data to show that this has happened here in the past, so there is little reason to believe it won't happen again.
BTW, I've never heard anyone suggest that we do away with public schools. That is just nonsense. Keep in mind that just because someone isn't a progressive doesn't automatically make him a reich winger. Sounds like you've been hanging around with some wackos.
Brunetto Latini,
Are you sure you aren't just biased against conservatives (and probably religious people), too? I'm pretty sure if I was gay I would be, but I still wouldn't vote for Obama.
Anyway, it would be nice if we could pick and choose the taxes we pay, but that just isn't the case. You could always adopt a couple of kids so you could get your money's worth. :)
Uh oh,
Are you sure you aren't operating on the stereotype that gay people are liberals and atheists?
I'm busy getting ready for church, and I'll probably be late after typing this post. I attend a moderate Protestant church, and I never voted for a Democrat in a national election until GW Bush ran for his second term.
These posts are really enlightening. A person states what they believe is fact and the rest of you dislike it. Someone else says something that is totally false and you like it. What an area.
Legally, there can be no takeover of the county school system. Anyone who says different is lying. Under the state constitution and laws, the counties are the responsible entity for educating the kids in each respective county. The county school system will be run by duly elected representation of people voted in by the citizens of each county. HOW IS THAT A TAKEOVER?
Public schools are just what it infers, schools for the pyblic, all of the public. Where a public school is located does not mean that it is solely for that neighborhood, city, etc. The taxpayers of the county should not help to turn a public school district into a quasi-private school system. That is why, if municipal school districts are eventually allowed to happen, you will see, kids from Memphis and other unincorporated areas bussed into these pristine cities bringing kids to the existing county schools. Yes, the new SCS will have a need and use for these schools, they will not be surplus, no, they will not be sold to the individual suburban cities. My granddaughter attends Oak Forest Elementary, and it is overcrowded. It is located right on the Memphis, Germantown boundary. They will bus some of the kids to one of the now, county elementary schools. We will use those existing schools to ease overcrowding, reduce class sizes and close down older, inner-city schools. No judge will argue against that. You want your own school districts, then build your own schools.
You conservative republicans are just full of lies. It's just like saying that the president is the food stamp president, and saying it in a way that infers that blacks are the one that are getting these benefits. Fact: 59% of food stamp recipients are white. Shocked, aren't you? Obamacare, the affordable care act, will result in the government making decisions about your health care, death panels. Fact: before any hospital admission and or treatment schedule, as recommended by ones physican, must now, be submitted to the persons insurance company to be approved before one can be treated. Now, that sounds like a true death panel. Don't believe me, look at your private insurance policy, it is right there in black and white. Oh, an by the way, under G. W. Bush, food stamps were given to 14.6 million people, under Obama it is 14.2 million. Now who is the food stamp president?
Fact, the food stamp program was sponsored by Senator Dole and he cast the deciding vote, a republican. Food stamps was really started to prop up the farm prices. Until the food stamp program was started, farmers was going out of business, because there was always a surplus of crops and that kept the prices too low. Food stamps was a way to prop up the crop prices, allowing farmers to make money.
Same is true for the welfare system. It was started to get the poor whites, mainly in appalachia, Tennessee is an integral part of that area, out of abject poverty. It was not specifically written for poor black people.
I suggest that you people that always punch dislike when someone posts the truth, go and do some research on the subject. It will stop you from looking stupid.
Spot on points about the origins of the food stamp program, otp. There is a reason it is under the Agriculture Dept.
uhoh, read some essays by conservative "thinkers" sometime. There are quite a few who espouse doing away with public schools.
Oh, I forgot to refute the lying republican talking point, overused by Shelby County Suburbanites, that black people are forever on welfare/food stamps and abuse the system. That is patently not true. There is a time limit on how long a person can avail themselves of these benefits. See link:
http://library.thinkguest.org/aug/00342/we…
Did you read your private insurance policies to see that what I said is True? Your medical treatment is not controlled by you and your doctor, now. It is controlled by a case manager, from your private insurance provider, who approves or disapproves any medical treatment and/or procedure that your doctor recommends. As a matter of fact, very few of you have a personal relationship with your doctor. You are just another patient, he treats so many patients, he/she does not have time to spend with you, individually. That's another myth.
Control of public schools. Public schools are almost independent of the school administration, as long as they operate within the parameters of its policies and they, the school boards, have to operate within the states guidelines., Having an administration that you didn't personally elect will not impede the education of your kids. Hell, the state department has overall authority over the school system, but, I don't know that it hardly exist.
Fact: Loaning money to General Motors and other american auto companies, save directly 325,00 jobs and saved the manufacturing base of this country. Indirectly, it saved as many as another 1 million jobs. Result, General Moters is now, the number one automobile company in the world. The loan has been repaid.
TARP, which was instituted by the Bush administration was not a bailout of the banks for poor and middle class people; it was done to help the rich. You see, the FDIC only insures each individual account up to a maximun of 250,000 dollars. Very few poor and middle class people would have lost money if the failed big banks were allowed to go broke. BUT, THE UPPER INCOME, THE RICH AND SUPER RICH WOULD HAVE LOST BILLIONS, BECAUSE ALL THEY COULD RECOVER FROM THE MILLIONS THEY HAD IN THE BIG BANKS WAS THE 250,000 DOLLARS.
As a matter of fact, every program that was ever designed was really designed to give aid and comfort to the rich and super rich in this country. The part that the poor and middle class people get is just the crumbs off of the table.
People, get smart, DON'T VOTE AGAINST YOUR OWN INTEREST!
Sorry, the link that I gave you for welfare limits does not work, however, all you have to do is google welfare and you can find it.
Brunetto, no, I was talking about certain religious people/conservatives who read in the Bible, thus believe, that gays are evil/sinners. That's all.
Packrat, I have no interest in that stuff, and I'm not going to read it any more than I'm going to fill up a U-Haul with guns and food and head for Wyoming.
Often these people on the fringe, like reich wingers and OTP, get too much attention.
Oh, OTP doesn't seem to you like he is on the fringe? Just wait...
uhoh, how am I on the fringe? You seem to forget that President Obama won election with 53% of the popular vote. Electorally, he won in a landslide. Are you saying that the majority of Americans are on the fringe? Right now, his approval is at 46%. Are all of these people on the fringe? His personal approval;, sans job approval, is at 60% Now, just who is on the fringe? The first lady is in the top 3 most popular and respected women in the nation. Get away from the small world of your community, Fox News and the minority republican talking points. Broaden your mind, even if you disagree with some of the policies of this government.
What have I said that puts me on the fringe? Is it because I refuse to buy into the lies that lefties and righties espouse? I try to follow truth and fact, regardless of where it comes from. I can remember my mother and quite a few blacks voting for Eisenhower. Hell, I even liked Reagan. We are not monolithic, but, we don't listen to talking points from either side and take it to be true.
Irrespective of the 2012 elections, the republican party is going down. The changing demographics will render it the minority party. That is just a fact. I would think it is better, for all of us, to stop the untrue talking points and try to come together to solve our problems. If you see a truck, in the distance, coming toward you, there is only three things that could happen; you either get out of the way, hope that the truck stops, or be bigoted, stubborn and get ran down; either way, you will not stop the truck.
OTP, Obama has nothing to do with it. You must know what I am talking about, and everyone else will some day when you have "a glass of wine" and get into a heated debate. That is when the real OTP emerges.
My advice would be to avoid the wine, because you will probably get banned here if you get into one of your usual rants.
Uhoh, it is not wine nor the kool aide that you drink that affect my feelings. It is what I see now, coupled with what has happened, in history, that makes me feel the way I do.
I can have a civil conversation, debate, with anyone, however, I will fight fire with fire. If a person gets into name calling, slander, etc, I can more than hold my own.
It is a fact of the long term demographics that this nation is moving to. It is also a fact, that in Shelby, Memphis will force consolidation of the two government entities. This is not speculation, if you open your eyes, you can see it coming. The days of yester-year are over, they will not come back. You don't have to cooperate with the majority of Shelby County to solve problems. You can just stay in the middle of the road and wait for that truck to run you down.
When you or someone else spout false claims and use coded words because you are too much of a coward to come right out with it, I will call you out, with the facts, at hand. Is that what you call, being on the fringe? Get real, Uhoh, the days of you being able to browbeat a people for their beliefs and aspirations are gone bye, bye.
Get a grip and join reality!
PS. I hate wine. As a matter of fact, I hate beer also and have not taken a drink of alcohol in at least 8 months.
When I see a truck, realizing it's stolen and transporting stolen goods and drugs, I just stop the truck, arrest the driver, confiscate the truck and it's contents, destroy the drugs and sell the rest on eBay, then use the proceeds to buy new laptops for the school children.
Well, OTP, I gotta say this sounds familiar. Please show an example of me doing whatever it is you are talking about, or apologize for suggesting I did so.
Also, you say it is a "fact" that Memphis is going to force government consolidation with the rest of the county. Please provide a citation for this "fact", or take the honorable path and retract your statement. Facts are easy to prove, so I'll be waiting.
ESAU, glad to hear from you. I needed someone to show their bigotry to chime in. Why would the truck be stolen? By whom? Just what are you too cowardly to say. If there was such a truck, it was carrying drugs, I doubt that you would attempt to stop it becaus, you seem like a coward, p;us, the driver would more than likely be white, and you wouldn't suspect a thing.
ESAU, you are a sniveling little cowardly bigot, hiding behind a screen name. If you had to uncover yourself, you would be so afraid, that if you saw a black coming, you would pee in your pants. I don't know you, but I know your kind, all bluster and no guts.
Have a good day, ya hear!
You go, OTP! One day you WILL accomplish your dream of turning Memphis into a Third-World ghetto. (You are very close to it now!)
Uhoh, I really don't have to show you anything when it is so obvious. The majority of votes win. There is a little case in federal court, Judge Anderson, I believe that challenges the Jim Crow dual vote scheme that you have to keep from consolidating the two governments. I think that it violates the voting rights act and so do the NAACP lawyers too. Please don't bring up the Lockport decision by the U. S. Supreme Court as a reason to uphold this law. That was a narrow decision. The difference in the Lockport decision is like the difference between night and day from Memphis and Shelby. Lockport was far removed and rural from the city that was ytying to force consolidation. They, in no way, had shared interest. The Memphis, Shelby County case is of two entities that not only are the same, but also, have shared interest. I would give odds that Memphis wins this case, just like it won the case against run-off elections for mayor, in Memphis.
Jeez, don't you read or keep up with anything?
Hey, OTP, I didn't say anything about race. You did.
You did that.
You.
OK, OTP, you can't support your original assertion that it is a "fact" that the county and city governments are going to be forcefully merged, yet you refuse to admit you are absolutely and completely wrong.
I'm just going back to ignoring your posts like I was forced to do at the CA. Someone else can correct your endless series of erroneous and unsupported comments.
Flyhigh, the conservative white power structure created the ghettos. Black people didn't. Grow up. read some actual history. Look who created white flight in Whitehaven, white people did. They freaked out and fled like rabbits when the first black person moved there, aided and abetted by a certain real estate firm (CL, hint, hint).
There is no point in attempting discussion with OTP. None at all.
Let me say for the second time, NOBODY in the Memphis Flyer commenting community gives a rat's ass about some chat-room feud some of you have dragged over here from the CA site. Please just stop it. It's inane and pointless. Nobody "wins" a fight on the internet. Ever. I suggest you try to address the subject being discussed and ignore comments from those you have personal issues with and we'll ALL enjoy the site a lot more. If y'all can't stop the petty crap, it's real easy to block your IP. We play by different rules over here. Keep it civil, no personal attacks. Thank you.
Why address everyone, Bruce?
I see only one personal attack. Why not address that person directly?
ESAU, before I wrote the words, "no personal attacks", I wrote a bunch of other sentences. They apply to any and all who insist on prolonging this little feud. If people will address the subject at hand and avoid petty back-and-forths, we'll all enjoy this place a lot more. Engaging in anonymous personal arguments on the Internet is just silly. You can't win and you bore and irritate everyone else. Rise above it.
OK, Bruce. I think you have made good points. The CA is a free-for-all, and I think we fell into some bad habits picked up over there. Personal attacks aren't allowed at any decent forum, so I apologize for my contribution to the chaos. I should have known better.
I think it's better to address people directly. Everywhere I've ever worked, all professional training I've ever received, any management techniques I've seen in books, all of it tells me to address an offense directly, and to address an offender directly, so as to avoid needlessly and unfairly categorizing groups of people.
Doing so is exactly how racism and other types of bigotry operate, and I believe this should be avoided if at all possible.
Thanks,
ESAU
I hear you ESAU, and don't assume that hasn't been done. There are several Flyer commenters who've been banished into the ether because they wouldn't act in a civil manner. I don't mind passion. I don't mind sarcasm, humor, pomposity, and all the other things that come with a chatroom. But I am bound and determined that this site will never degenerate into the cesspool that the CA comments have become. Racism and vicious personal attacks will get you gone — sooner than later.
The user interface requires you to address the person directly, otherwise no will know which post you are referencing.
TruthBeTold, this is the place. We've had some good discussions here about the schools. Today is an aberrattion.
Does anyone know if the new MSDs will have taxing authority?
While I favor the county wide system, I am not opposed to MSDs, I do feel strongly that only the children within the boundaries of that municipality should be allowed to attend school there (with the tuition option available if one desired to use it).
As a side note, one problem I have experienced with small, municipal districts is the lack of educational opportunities and curriculum. Something to be wary of. Smaller districts can sometimes be manipulated by even smaller fractions of the community as a whole, leading to the teaching of dogma rather than reason. Be careful what you wish for.
That's a question I would also ask, merc, since possibly 2 of my 3 kids may end up in the Gtown MSD. imo, taxing authority should stay with the city, not the school board. I'll also be pretty vigilant that certain elements don't try to turn the MSD into a de facto evangelical school.
Well, Merc and Pack, that's a feature, not a bug, and you can be sure someone somewhere is already twiddling his fingers and salivating at the prospect.
Sweet Wounded Jesus!!! Curry "Pour Me Another One" Todd is at it again. I'm soooo glad that he listened to the Governor and withheld any legislation in regards to the schools debacle we have building here in Shelby County. This idiot is going have the entire consolidation/MSD formation tied up in court for years. Somebody needs to put him back on a bar stool and get him out of the capitol!
The building issue needs to be negotiated if MSD's are formed, not adjudicated. Todd, et all, are guaranteeing the issue will end up in court.
The transfer of buildings between MCS and SCS due to annexation was always negotiated, and mostly fairly to both sides, usually by adjusting the ADA formula for a number of years, etc.
By the time the building transfers, taxes, and other issues are out of court, the unified district should have had time to succeed or fail. The whole MSD attempt seems reactionary and poorly thought out. I wouldn't dare try to enroll children into a school system as small as would be needed for a MSD. Too much opportunity for groupthink and personal agendas.
Ah but the question of paying for those buildings is likely to hold up the prospect of forming the munis, especially as the combined county system is sure to demand full payment in an effort to scotch them. Therefore our legislators want to pass another Shelby County Only law which will force the city to give the schools to the munis for no charge at all. Of course, dragging this out in court and the prospect of years of uncertainty are only going to drive even more people out the Shelby County. By the time it gets settled, there won't be enough of a tax base to support municipal school districts.
Very good points, Jeff. So, it could almost be viewed as a self-defeating option?
Almost. If this were 2006 and the housing market hadn't crashed, Germantown would already be half-empty.
THIS WEEK'S ISSUE
SPECIAL ISSUES
